• Denver posted a reply to Magnus Bane on ?Morality and Veganism 1 month ago

    ?Morality and Veganism

    Hey Magnus, sorry for taking so long to reply, busy week. Ah yup you’re right i’m not sure that the number who hold that position is very miniscule (unless a lot of people are being hyperbolic quite often), but its definitely a weak man if not a straw man haha. To word my position better, I think that the argument is invalid because the moral worth of animals is so far removed from humans that it justifies breeding them for milk/meat. On the other hand, I definitely think the dairy/meat industry could probably be reformed in many ways, but i’m just not sure that getting 6 years of being well fed throughout that time, while not having to worry about escaping predators every year, being housed in a warm, sheltered freestall is such a bad life for a cow. The AI argument is another example of what I see as extreme rhetoric, AI is likely much less stressful for cows than actual mating, which may often involve a massive, older bull roughly mounting a smaller, younger cow whereas the AI process is much faster and less painful, not at all the “rape” that some (not all/most) vegans try to portray it as. We really don’t have enough evidence to back up a lot of the claims that vegans make, this isn’t really a very well studied topic (e.g. how do you study levels of stress in cows etc?): https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(19)30436-9/fulltext
    And as for your comparisons with babies and the severely mentally disabled, we’re getting into very interesting/troubling territory now. Your argument as to babies doesn’t work, I think, because babies are merely humans that are temporarily unable to think/plan/experience deeply complicated emotions. Animals on the other hand, simply never have the potential to experience these things. By the same arguments, I think we should have some concern for how we treat animals, but none for (today’s forms of) robots/AI because most chordata can experience things while today’s forms of AI have no possibility for this. As for the severely mentally disabled, this is the part I find more troubling, because some of these people, I suppose have no possibility of experiencing long-term planning and other abilities. I think my thoughts on this matter boil down to “there but for the grace of God go I”, and a shared human empathy with such individuals, as well as a moral responsibility to other humans, who share more in common with me than any animals do. I’m aware this is an area of huge philosophical debate though, and I should probably read some of the relevant literature to better articulate my thoughts on this (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cognitive-disability/#HumGroFulMorSta https://dsq-sds.org/article/view/4375/4207 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42048-018-0023-y). Thanks for your reply, you’ve been most polite, if I read anything that seems a bit harsh I’ll try not to read badly into your intent, and would hope that you’d do the same with me. Cheers! Invited review: A systematic review of the effects of prolonged cow–calf contact on behavior, welfare, and productivity Separation of calves from cows within hours or days of birth is common on dairy farms. Stakeholders have conflicting perspectives on whether this practice is harmful or beneficial for the animals’ welfare and production. Our objective was to critically evaluate the scientific evidence for both acute and long-term effects of early separation versus an extended period of cow–calf contact. The outcomes investigated were the behavior, welfare (excluding physical health), and performance (milk yield and growth, respectively) of dairy cows and calves.